Catholic-Protestant Dialogue

It came to my attention recently that the Athanasian Creed is not regularly read in any Mass service (going back to changes since Vatican II). However, Lutherans have been using this creed going back to the original Book of Concord.

Given the split from Roman Catholicism, what do Lutherans do with the last few lines of the creed:

41. At whose coming [Jesus'] all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

Is the final declaration of Christ based upon a life of good works? How do Lutheran scholars mesh this with their adherence to forensic justification and imputed righteousness? I found the Missouri Synod answer here.

It caught my eye that the Missouri Synod answer appeals to Romans 2:6-10. This same text is the center of a debate about “future justification” that is raging in Reformed and Protestant circles and is the starting point of critiques against the so-called New Perspective on Paul and on N. T. Wright.

Since the interpretation of Romans 2:6-10 is a battleground text, let me quote it in full (ESV):

He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

This debate is bigger than I have just indicated. For example, Richard Gaffin, former professor of Westminster Seminary, teaches a “not yet” component to our justification. He is a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and his view has been challenged in the church courts.

Likewise, in the Presbyterian Church of America, position papers have been presented on the subject.

Within Reformed and Presbyterian circles, the label for teachings on future justification is Federal Vision, often associated with the 2002-2003 Auburn Avenue lectures (you could Google on ‘Auburn Avenue’ and find sites of this sort).

The thread that unites all that I am saying is this: N. T. Wright, Dick Gaffin and people associated with the Auburn Avenue Theology are all talking about Romans 2:6-10 and all of them have been charged with being Roman Catholic in their doctrine of Justification.

So when I read the Athanasian Creed again, and then checked the Missouri Synod response, I wondered: Why have the Protestants not been grilling Lutherans as forcibly as they are these other Protestants? I don’t know the answer to that. If someone accused the Missouri Synod Lutherans of being Roman Catholic, that would be entertaining.

Steve

Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted from the Diocese of Phoenix is not happy with the president of Notre Dame (a Catholic school).  The school is planning to give Obama an honorary degree (to match his honorary birth certificate). Here is a link to Olmsted’s short public statement.

The issue is abortion. The Bishop writes:

No one could not know of the public stands and actions of the president on key issues opposed to the most vulnderable human beings.

I really like what the Bishop of South Bend said. South Bend is the home of Notre Dame and John D’Arcy is the Bishop. He writes this:

After much prayer, I have decided not to attend the graduation.

Well, I am a Protestant, so I have a few questions. I want to ask the faithful leaders of the Church some honest questions (they can leave answers in the comments section of this blog). Then I have some observations that may evoke a conversation, and finally, I want to write a letter to Notre Dame.

My Questions:

1. What power do Bishops have over the school and the president?
2. Is letter writing the extent of ecclesiastical power?
3. Is Notre Dame ultimately a Protestant school that follows no Pope or Bishop?
4. If Notre Dame recognizes no authority over them, are they not just one of the many Protestant institutions who have no regard for the Bible (the Protestant source of authority)?

Some Observations:

Liberal Protestants are famous for their rejection of Biblical authority — attributing to the Bible origins based upon old 18th and 19th century primitive thinking about evoloutionary processes. In the end, the Bible is postulated to be the product of natural processes and mutations — lacking a single Divine Author. Their theory belongs to the field of Higher Criticism and is cryptically referred to as JEDP.

As I see it, Notre Dame rejects authority like the brand of Protestantism we call Liberal. In Notre Dame’s actions, they make the Popes and Bishops to be apes and monkeys like Liberal Protestants make the Bible to be the accidental outcome of natural selection and Darwinian evolution.

Therefore, inspired as I am by all these Catholic Bishops who are writing letters these days, I am going to write my own. I am writing as an ordained minister with a recognized eccleasastical office.

My Open Letter to Notre Dame:

Dear Notre Dame,

I want to say, “Welcome to the Protestant world.” However, as you reject Catholic authority I instead greet you with these words (written with all sobriety): We don’t want you. Go away. Go to those Jesus-hating fields where Liberal theologians are contemplating if their deity is a female who celebrates abortion. Go to the places where homosexuals are ordained. Indeed, there is room for you outside of the Catholic church, but there is not room for you in the kingdom of God unless you repent and believe the Gospel.

We don’t need more authority-rejecting rebels who call themselves Protestant. As you obstinately refuse to obey your Bishops and Popes, you are neither Catholic or Protestant. However, we do ask one favor of you. Please send a copy of this letter to Kathleen Sebelius.

Sincerely,

Stephen S. Rives
Pastor, Eastside Church of the Cross

I want to direct our readers to a site that claims to be, “Voice of the Catholic Lay Faithful”:

http://www.pewsitter.com/

This is not a theological blog (which is what I study most), but here you will see here that pro-choice politicians are being called to answer to the Pope.

I have been added to the blog for a while but have yet to post. I figure I should.

I am Nick and I am a Roman Catholic seminarian, meaning I am studying to be a Catholic priest.

So first off I want to present a little practical intro to the journey to the priesthood. Theologically the priesthood is one of the hardest things to explain even to Catholic, but the live experience of seminary is common ground. Read the rest of this entry »

I was introduced to Reformed Theology by two friends while at Seminary.  I had come from a traditional Armenian, dispensationalist Baptist background.  What I heard from my two friends caused me to rethink everything I thought I believed.  I teach a Young Married Sunday School class.  We devoted a unit in the class on Reformed Theology and the Doctrines of Grace.  Ever since that unit, every topic discussed always seems to come around to the differences between the traditional Baptist views and the Reformed Theology views. Read the rest of this entry »

We are in discussions regarding our 2nd Annual Conference for Catholic and Protestant Dialogs in Louisburg (this conference, Lord willing, will be in 2009). We are working with possible presenters. No dates have even been suggested. We will keep you informed, but write in and let us know your ideas.

Steve Rives
Louisburg, Kansas, Eastside Church of the Cross

I know this is a Catholic-Protestant dialog. But I am going to change the subject for this little post.

There are many things we share in common, and one is a desire to learn and grow. Well, I put together a little post on ways that any person’s brain can get stronger (using easy methods that, once learned, really work). Check it out: http://www.mrrives.com/Technology/?p=10

PART 3

Apocryphal literature has an important place in the distance that exists between different Christian traditions. Christian groups may appear to be divided primarily over the interpretation of the sacred texts, but that is only part of the story.  Prior to that division is the split over which books actually make it into the scripture (into the canon).  And prior to that — if you will allow me to be slightly philosophical — there is the first step of making an assumption that there is even such a thing as scripture.  That is, the very notions of canon and scripture come before we ever get to the problem of which books are included, and both of those are prior to the differences in interpretation. Thankfully, there seems to be bedrock agreement about the first part in the chain: Protestants and Catholics fundamentally agree that there is a thing called scripture. The trouble begins when we start to define which books get included in scripture. I hope today to point out some of the tough issues behind this trouble. And I start with a WARNING: there are no easy answers!

Read the rest of this entry »

PART 2

As I wrote in my last post, there are some ancient books that are disputed in terms of their belonging in the bible. I list the most important below (and a few more), and I bold those that are considered biblical and scriptural by the Roman Catholic church.  As I said in my last installment of this series, the Catholic church would call these books deuterocanonical (extended/second canon).  Most Protestant churches do not consider any of the following as biblical books (and call them apocryphal).  You will find translations of these books in most RSV bibles.  You will also find them them on the internet.  They are as follows:

Read the rest of this entry »

PART 1

Catholics and Protestants don’t count things in the same way when it comes to numbering the books included in the bible. Between the two groups, there are different lists.

As I like to remind everyone in these dialogs, I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church. That means that in my series on The Apocrypha, you will find that my reckoning of what counts as scriptural will not match the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The difference between the two reckonings is part of the collection of books that we Protestants dub apocryphal.

Read the rest of this entry »